S5 E5: The Complicated Reality of Workplace Wellness Programs

Podcast April 16, 2024

• Link to New York Times Article: Workplace Wellness Programs Have Little Benefit, Study Finds

Transcript:

Pete Wright:
Welcome to Human Solutions: Simplifying HR for People who Love HR. From AIM HR Solutions on TruStory FM, I’m Pete Wright. And this week we’re talking about workplace wellness programs and I am thrilled to mention our very own Jen Moff, VP of learning development from AIM HR Solutions. Jen, thank you for joining me for this conversation.

Jen Moff:
Thank you for having me, Pete.

Pete Wright:
Normally, I do a quippy intro. You’ll note no quippy intro this morning.

Jen Moff:
Yeah.

Pete Wright:
I believe the intro speaks for itself. Some months ago now, when we were on our hiatus between seasons, an article crossed my desk from The New York Times and the headline was Workplace Wellness Programs Have Little Benefit Study Finds. “An Oxford researcher measured the effect of popular workplace mental health interventions and discovered little to none.” And that hurt my heart and I thought who better to talk about my heartache than Jen Moff. Right? So the upshot is this, this British researcher analyzing survey responses from 46,000 workers.

Jen Moff:
It’s a lot.

Pete Wright:
… found… It’s a lot. One might say enough.

Jen Moff:
Yeah.

Pete Wright:
Found that workplace wellness programs had little to no benefit for employees well-being. The only exception was giving volunteers the opportunity to do charity or volunteer work, which seemed to improve their well-being. Seemed to. The study suggested that employers should focus on core organizational practices like schedules, pay, and performance reviews to improve employee well-being. It was controversial. Experts argued that the study’s findings were not surprising at all, as employees often want to be seen as doing something without making significant changes in how work is organized. The corporate wellness services industry has grown a lot in recent years. Companies are investing heavily in these programs and that sort of sets the table for the life of contradiction that we live in.

Jen Moff:
Grab a knife and a fork.

Pete Wright:
… for those of us…

Jen Moff:
Here we go.

Pete Wright:
Yeah, here we go. So I sent this, I lobbed this particular grenade into your inbox. How does this hit you?

Jen Moff:
I have so… I don’t even know where to start. I have so many thoughts and my mouth can only go so fast.

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Jen Moff:
It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest, unfortunately. It just doesn’t. And this is coming from somebody who really loves wellness. I’ve mentioned on a previous podcast that that’s an area that I have a special passion for in the coaching that I do with clients. And I’ve built a few wellness-related training sessions for AIM HR Solutions since I’ve been here. And I still agree with the findings. And I think there’s a lot to unpack here. I have really significant thoughts about why that is and that’s from a lot of different vantage points and relationships that I have with different people across the US and beyond and what’s happening in the world today.

Pete Wright:
All right, so let’s begin. Where do we start? Who is responsible for a deficit in the appreciable impact of workplace wellness programs?

Jen Moff:
I think it’s an important question and doesn’t have a simple answer. I take that back. It has a simple answer, but it’s not an easy answer. I want to rephrase.

Pete Wright:
Those are the worst. Those are the worst.

Jen Moff:
I know, sorry. Who’s responsible? I think we all are in some ways. I don’t think it’s happening in a vacuum. I don’t think it’s happening on an island. And there’s a tension that I find that is sometimes hard to sit in, to walk that tightrope between radical personal responsibility, what we are not doing as individuals to help ourselves, but also what systems exist in the world that do not allow us to have the resources, the opportunities that are needed to move these things forward.
So inflation, that’s a huge thing that impacts people’s day-to-day living. When prices go up for certain things, the hierarchy that Maslow put together says very basic bottom stuff. You’ve got to worry about your actual needs. You’re not going to be worrying about how to do some breath work or do a meditation to relax yourself and build resilience if you’re worried about paying your rent, if you’re worried about your mortgage or your car being repossessed or whatever it is. So just I hope in that initial example, you understand what I mean by it’s simple, but it’s not easy.

Pete Wright:
Well, it begs the question, who are these programs for then? Are they for the employees who are, by your own example, not likely to use them? Or are they for the companies and their efforts to market and attract new employees?

Jen Moff:
Oh, you’re asking a question and a half my friend. I don’t know, this is definitely subjective. I think the argument could be made that it could be for the company. It’s performative and there’s trends and we’re seeing it in the marketplace, and oh, we should put this in our total compensation package, and it’s going to make us look great and attract top talent. But if at the end of the day people aren’t able to really leverage and value through active use, the things included in their total compensation, like a membership to a gym that’s included or a promotion where if you stop smoking or if you join a online tool like Fitbit, they used to have those for companies to roll out and give everybody a Fitbit and they do internal competitions, it all looks really good on paper, which is where the argument comes who is this really for? It might look great, but how do… You know?

Pete Wright:
Well, and it goes to something we’ve talked about a number of times on just sort of the authenticity of presentation of some of these benefits. And so I am living in the liminal space between companies desire to do authentically good things and appear authentically good and the question of whether or not these programs are legitimately a good idea, whether people are using them or not, because somebody might and somebody’s life might get better.

Jen Moff:
Yeah, there’s a lot of gray area and nuance that I think the world today doesn’t always enjoy digging into through critical thinking. And that’s what you’re asking is to say, “Are we looking at this through an absolutism lens?” Like, “No company is doing this for the right reasons. It’s all blah, blah, blah.” And there’s nobody that’s really using it and it’s all a moot point. I don’t know that it’s that simple to say, “Yeah, that’s every company.” I don’t think so because as a business owner as well, I know where my heart is and I have to believe that other business owners and leaders at companies… Even at AIM, we’re always doing what we can to really listen to the team and provide things that are going to be valuable.
There’s certain benefits that consistently are useful and valuable, and this is a newer one. And so I think because it is newer, like any tool, the tool can be used in many different ways. And so companies are trying to figure out how best to use it, but it’s not landing. And so how do you troubleshoot something when safety and trust in the workplace is also a challenge?

Pete Wright:
At a low, right? I want to get to the conversation on how to build a program that might build traction. And the challenge that I’m having with that conversation is the speed of assessment that programs are or are not working is made. My sense is that once a company has invested in a program, assessment of whether the program is working, let’s say it’s a mindfulness program, let’s say it’s an investment in an app, let’s say something like that, that the assessment of to whether that is working or not is made more quickly than is useful to build a culture, look, I dropped a buzzword, a culture of acceptance of these workplace wellness models. Is that at all a fair assessment that I’m making?

Jen Moff:
I think so. I can remember years ago, years and years ago where I worked as a bartender and this business had just opened. They were super busy on opening night, and then something changed for them and they were like, “We’ve got to pivot how we have the club run,” or whatever. And the owner was not allowing the information to build and grow. If it didn’t work one night, he would change it immediately the next night.
And real change, regardless of industry, regardless of what change you’re trying to make, I don’t think happens overnight. That’s why they even joke, people in the public eye, “Oh, it’s an overnight success,” when they’ve been grinding away for 10 years. So that’s why strategic work, and part of wellness initiatives is a strategy, you have to be looking at the big picture. You have to be looking long-term and thinking who do we want to be as a company and how do we show up every day? If you’re changing things and not making an assessment for the long haul and who you want to be, that reactive, we’re just trying to accomplish something, I think you’re absolutely right, it doesn’t accomplish what needs to be accomplished.

Pete Wright:
When you think about helping an organization build a program like this, how do you encourage them to balance the need for these evidence-based interventions with this desire to offer a wide range of wellness options for employees?

Jen Moff:
I think everything in my industry, in L&D, always starts with an analysis. So take stock of where you are, what do you currently have in place, whether it’s a formal or an informal initiative or program. Maybe there’s a group of people meeting internally. I’ve seen that at other companies where they use Slack and they have different little Slack channels for different things to discuss. What’s actually happening that’s resonating that is currently in place? And then take a poll and find out from the people that you’re going to be doing this for what are they like? What are they not like? So you have to gather information slowly, intentionally, whether it’s through an assessment tool, whether it’s through focus groups or one-on-one interviews, and analyze that data or data depending on how you prefer to say it…

Pete Wright:
Wherever you are.

Jen Moff:
… and really look at that information and say, “Okay, what are we doing well?” And allow yourself to feel some satisfaction that something is working because it’s important to celebrate successes because there’s going to be plenty of times that there aren’t any. And you need that to keep propelling you forward as you make these kinds of changes. And then say, “All right, well what is it that the people want?” And then it’s not as simple as just like, “All right, well, we’re going to give them whatever they want.” I can just hear that, like, “Who’s in charge here?” It’s a balance.

Pete Wright:
It’s incredibly challenging because I think what you just described is what is the value of employee assessments? Because how many times have you heard an executive say, “I don’t think our people know what they want in this area. They won’t know what they want until we give it to them.”

Jen Moff:
Yeah, that’s Ford’s story, case in point about the car. I’d ask them, they’d want a faster horse.

Pete Wright:
And so it gets to the question of okay, well, if we have a culture of not being able to completely trust the assessments that we’re getting and the things that people request, let’s just give them everything and see what sticks.

Jen Moff:
I think there’s different tactics that can be employed and that certainly is one, like, “Let’s just throw it all out.” But the risk with that is overwhelm, lack of education for adoption, people not knowing what’s accessible to them and then not leveraging it or just not being at a certain place in time. If you are downsizing and trying to launch these initiatives at the same time, if time was an issue before, it’s even more of an issue now. So people are not going to have the time and the energy to leverage the resources no matter how many you fling on the wall spaghetti-wise.

Pete Wright:
Is there and have you ever seen any data around employees and their desires to use internal corporate resources? Let’s say coaching. We’ve just had a fabulous conversation on coaching with Scott Lummer. For internal or company-sponsored programs like coaching or financial wellness, data that support employees saying, “Hey, you know what? I appreciate that you’re doing this, but I would like some external agency. I’m going to pick my own. I’m going to handle my own. I don’t want the services that you’re offering because I need some separation.”

Jen Moff:
I’ve seen both. I have a friend and colleague that is happy to use access to EAPs and their internal coaching. He’s like, “If I’ve got access to it, I’m taking it.” It’s part of my compensation, why would I not take advantage of it? Am I going to turn down part of my paycheck every month? Absolutely not. So why wouldn’t I leverage X, Y, and Z? And then, I mean, people are different and it’s hard to make everyone happy and you can’t. And so there’s other people that’s like, “You know what? I really appreciate it, but I don’t like this person. I don’t connect with this person that you’re providing and that’s useless to me,” or a waste to me or not valuable to me or whatever the belief may be. And they’re like, “Well, it’d be better if I could have the financial stipend to go and source my own person.”

Pete Wright:
Or go to my own gym or whatever the case may be.

Jen Moff:
We have a gym program as part of our benefit package. I remember when I first started and I was like, “Oh, this is interesting.” And it’s like a monthly, not kickback, but you get a certain amount of money for proving that you’ve gone to the gym X number of days per week. I go to do strength training twice a week and that doesn’t meet the minimum qualifications. But if I go and walk into a Planet Fitness and just hang out there and watch TV for 30 minutes, that would qualify? So there’s imperfections everywhere and it’s not for lack of effort on the company or the individual, which is why I’m like, “It’s this tension between both.”

Pete Wright:
How do you then rationalize the expense to do anything and not just kick back straight dollars when, to your point, you can’t please everyone and clearly not enough people are using enough of our programs?

Jen Moff:
I saw around the holidays, this is quasi related, someone had a company that they worked for that the company did nothing around the holidays to acknowledge the holidays to their staff. And what they were told was, “Well, there’s so many different holidays, we don’t want to do something for everyone, and we didn’t want to leave anyone out, so we just did nothing.”

Pete Wright:
That’s a great example.

Jen Moff:
And the person said, “I’ve never seen DEI used as a weapon, but this time it was.” And so I share that example, not to make this about DEI, but through the lens of wellness, you can avoid and that sends a message too. And like you said, it’s well, it’s the you’re darned if you do, you’re darned if you don’t, what do you do?

Pete Wright:
I don’t envy wellness program advocates. And I’m in that, personally in that space and worked in HR for many years. But the point is this, I feel I’m bullish on workplace wellness programs. I believe they provide value and send a message of the core values of an organization when used appropriately.

Jen Moff:
Bingo, that thing that you just said about the values.

Pete Wright:
Right. Right. So what does it mean? How do you go about, once again, my favorite made-up Massachusetts manufacturing organization. It’s now five years old. I can’t even believe it.

Jen Moff:
Wow.

Pete Wright:
But when you’re thinking about [inaudible 00:17:40]. Jen, it’s just in my head. It could be 20 today. I don’t know.

Jen Moff:
I can hype you up.

Pete Wright:
But if you’re looking at starting this program, at building something that employees to get around but that sends the message of use this. This is a thing. We want to celebrate the things you value and the things we as an organization value. You’re here for a reason. Maybe it’s just the paycheck, but you applied for some reason, something attracted you. So how do we create a wellness program that actually works and is engaged by the employees who work here and give so much of their sweat and toil to this thing?

Jen Moff:
You remind me of a conversation that you and I and Tom had on a previous episode talking about culture. And the word that you just used about values, it’s something that comes up in coaching a lot for me. And people think that they value things all the time. “Oh, I value my health.” Well, do you? Here’s how you can tell.

Pete Wright:
“No, no, no, let me eat this next donut and see what happens.”

Jen Moff:
“I don’t have a lot of time. I’ve got to hurry up and eat this. It’s fine. I’m…

Pete Wright:
“I got to get to Krispy Kreme.”

Jen Moff:
Yeah, whatever.

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Jen Moff:
Krispy Kreme.

Pete Wright:
Yeah. “I got a sixer at Krispy Kreme in a drive through. And I value my health, just not right now.”

Jen Moff:
Yeah. “I’m tired at the end of the day. I know I could cook. I have a great fridge full of healthy food, but I’m so stressed out and so tired, I’m just going to order delivery instead.”

Pete Wright:
Yeah, right.

Jen Moff:
We see what we value on an individual and a societal level by where we spend our time and our money. And so if you’re looking to develop some kind of wellness program internally, start with the culture. Start with your mission, your vision, and your values. Does this really align with the company’s values? And you have to be honest with yourself.
It could be shoehorned in and say we value teamwork. Okay, how do you support teamwork? Make sure everybody’s as healthy as possible. Okay. Do you value wellness? I remember a company I learned about when I first moved here, the founder was Buddhist. And because he believed in that, he had wellness baked into the company’s culture. They had a whole room for wellness on site. He brought in a masseuse on certain days. He had somebody come in to lead meditations for them. And because he was very transparent about this, it was led with on the website and all of their other promotional social media materials. So what is attracting people as professionals that wanted to be part of an organization that already did those things.
And so I say all that to say you have to take a stand and do the things that you’re going to do for whatever reason that you choose to do them, aligning with your values, and then attract the people that want those kind of wellness initiatives. And it might mean that it’s only a few things that you can do and that will attract somebody that is okay with those things. It’s not a clear-cut answer, and I don’t know that I like my answer because it is so new and we don’t have a way to make everyone happy,

Pete Wright:
Do we need to pause because of the…

Jen Moff:
Sorry, I completely forgot to turn it off. We’ll just wait until it’s done.

Pete Wright:
Let’s just get through and kind of start that answer again if you can remember.

Jen Moff:
Do I start at the beginning?

Pete Wright:
Okay, now we have 15 minutes…

Jen Moff:
Perfect.

Pete Wright:
… until the next chime.

Jen Moff:
Actually, we’ve got 30.

Pete Wright:
Oh, okay.

Jen Moff:
Where did I start at? Do I need to go all the way back?

Pete Wright:
Well, you were talking about the Buddhist and it’s such a great point because I’ve got a follow-up.

Jen Moff:
Okay. There was a company here that had a founder and the CEO who was Buddhist. And he believed so intensely in his spirituality that he wanted it to be a part of his life everywhere, not just outside of work, but at work. So he brought in massage therapists, he brought in meditation experts. He embodied the life inside and outside of work. And so it attracted individuals who wanted to be at a workplace that did those things as well.
So my encouragement would be to make some kind of decision. I don’t know what that decision is for you. It’s obviously based on a lot of different factors. The values of the company being one, what’s in your budget for another. There’s a lot there. And so when you take a stand and you put those things in place for part of the company’s culture and the total compensation for employees, share that. And hopefully the intent is the culture will grow and that’ll be baked into the culture and you’ll attract individuals that want those specific types of benefits. And maybe it’s one or two small things. Maybe it’s something really wild and different. Like in that article, you said some people were really impacted by going out and doing philanthropic volunteering. Maybe that’s all you can do.
It’s not a simple answer as I’ve said before. I don’t know that I like my answer, but it’s the best that we’ve got with this new world that we’re in I think.

Pete Wright:
Well, you said something provocative to me, which was that in your example, you have a leader who embodies these values, right? That’s an individual person who’s living these values. And for companies at scale, sometimes they don’t have a leader who embodies those values. Sometimes they have a leader who embodies the value of I know we need some of these values in our community. I know we need some of these services. I don’t know what they are because I don’t understand them myself. Maybe we should just outsource them and make sure that we have a giant bucket that we can just throw dollars at where everybody can have them at their discretion.
But this I think brings us back to the efficacy of those programs when you don’t have someone in the role embodying the values that you’re trying to enculturate. And in this case, how do you build… And I don’t want to make the case that you have to do everything internal and hire a Sherpa to lead you up to the mountaintop. What I’m saying is maybe you need to employ someone who understands those values and knows what services to bring into the organization, what outsource services to bring into the organization if it’s not you.

Jen Moff:
Yeah. The business world and the marketplace today, we’ve talked about before, it’s changing wildly as to what job seekers are looking for. And they can smell inauthentic behavior from a company. They can smell performance and they do not like it. So I agree with you. Don’t go and think, oh, you need to go learn this thing now, so you can do this thing too. It’d be better to hire somebody either contractually in-house or outsource it who is the embodiment of the thing that you’re trying to bring in. That’s going to make you come across far more credible and support the initiatives because you’re going to have somebody who understands, you’re going to have somebody who can discern really where you are and where you can go with their expert knowledge.

Pete Wright:
Complicated conversation, Jen Moff

Jen Moff:
Preach.

Pete Wright:
Yeah. I’m going to put the link to the article that we sent. It went around again a few months ago while we were on break, so you might’ve seen it, this New York Times piece. But I encourage you to read it because as I hope you’ve heard listening to Jen and I talk about it, there are things in this article that are tough pills to swallow and we have to acknowledge them. And yet the value of values and communicating those values in our organization can’t be understated. And workplace wellness, I don’t know, I don’t want to speak for you Jen, but workplace wellness has a place.

Jen Moff:
Oh, I absolutely agree. I think it’s just beginning to take hold and that’s why there’s this confusion and this uncertainty and instability because the desires are there. If you look at any group online in social media forums, there’s so much more openness today about health from all vantage points, wellness from all vantage points, content that’s being made on TV and on streaming platforms, talking about mental health in particular in a way that’s never really taken foot before. And as it grows outside of the workplace, it’s going to spill over more and more into the workplace. And the companies that are really going to succeed with wellness in whatever way are going to be those who embrace it and are proactive to move it forward.

Pete Wright:
Excellent way to wrap up this conversation, Jen. I appreciate that wisdom as always. Thank you for riffing with me. HR is jazz, Jen. That’s what we’ve learned today. We’re just riffing.

Jen Moff:
Dancing.

Pete Wright:
HR is jazz, everybody. Again, check the notes for the link to this particular piece. Read it yourself and share the word. What did you get out of it? We’d love to hear. As always, you can find those links in the show notes, in your favorite podcast app, or at aimhrsolutions.com. And on behalf of Jen Moff, I’m Pete Wright. We’ll see you next time right here on Human Solutions: Simplifying HR for People who Love HR.